Hey Clifford, I just wanted to say that I’m at work, so it’s going to take me a while to get through this, but I’m six or seven minutes in and you have my attention. Well-written and funny. Looking forward to finishing 🫡
Hey, thanks so much! I really appreciate you taking the time to say something so early on. I’m just sitting here waiting for people to read this way-too-long essay wondering what they’ll think, so this is balm to my soul. haha
I’m going to leave off reading the other comments till I get to the end, but I’ve just made it through the first set of literary eras. You have successfully made me feel guilty for my steady diet of fantasy and science fiction. Congratulations.
Alright, I made it, and you're right, I feel much better. Before I get all wrapped up in me-centric reactions, I just want to say that I think this was beautifully written, well researched, and compelling. I felt genuine nostalgia reading it throughout the day, had lots of thoughts, and have a whole list of books to buy. You've also convinced me that memes should be allowed in academic papers.
Now, let me try to remember all of the thoughts.
First, I think this is going to be a controversial topic! Defining what lies within and without fantasy before the genre is named is going to cause argument for sure. There's also a question as to whether science fiction and fantasy are really just flavors of the same thing. I mentioned Damien Walter to you before, and he focuses on the concept of mythos over genre, which I think is a pretty compelling framing.
I feel like you did a solid job of presenting the lineage (some of which I had never considered). I think it's really hard to separate fantasy stories from myth making (curious if you've ever read The Golden Bough?) and even religion...except that maybe fantasy begins when we become conscious that we're making things up?
I would love to see a comparison between C.S. Lewis and Philip Pullman. You framed Pullman's work as "anti-Lewisian" and I'd never considered it, but it seems like there's something there.
Regarding your predictions--and I swear this isn't a plug!--it's pretty astonishing how much of what you wrote I see in my own work, aside from the reaction to romantasy; I haven't read enough of that to be reacting to it. But to the point of writing as reaction, I saw chosen ones in everything I consumed (and loved) and made a conscious decision never to write about one, but instead to write more human stories that happened to feature magic; I saw hard magic systems proliferating and decided on soft; and though it's been more of an evolution in this direction over the years, I find my writing focusing less on plot and more on ideas and emotions.
Ah, one last thing I remembered wanting to mention. In some other communities, they claim the postmodern is being / will be followed by the metamodern. *Into the Spiderverse* is cited as a popular example of a metamodern story. Curious if you've heard of it or given it any thought.
Anyway, thanks for the effort, great piece and looking forward to seeing what you publish next.
Loved this! Do you think that fantasy is inherently tied to mythology? Are there big works of fantasy that aren't tied to a mythologic/religious tradition?
So hard to say and maybe beyond my knowledge. I think many have tried to differentiate themselves from those two but my instinct is that opposing something is still sort of being descended from it.
Great job, Clifford! It was a great education. Personally, I think your "Where Next?" predictions are spot on. My writing falls in the second one--mostly "realistic" adventure stories with a touch of "magic." Thanks for the time and effort!
The postmodernism movement is hilarious because they teach that there are NO ABSOLUTES but that very statement IS AN ABSOLUTE in and of itself. 🤣 Intellectual hypocrisy at its finest.
I've never thought of gothic literature as part of the fantasy genre, this is such an interesting look on how fantasy is related to larger literary trends
Enjoyed your essay very much. I'm an "omnivore" when it comes to my reading (I need to invent a better word), so enjoy the comparing and contrasting of the different genres, literary movements, and how they play off each other.
Having just finished reading your article, so not a lot of thought about your points, I would also argue that much of "Star Trek" is also fantasy. Gene Roddenberry, and many of the sf writers in the 1940-1950's, were veterans of WWII. Their writing reflects their fantasy of a "perfect" world, one without war, poverty, greed, discrimination, and prejudice. Faster-Than-Light (FTL) space travel is, itself, a form of "soft magic" as is a completely altruistic society.
On a lighter note, I blame Tolkien and Lewis for popularizing trilogies and series. I am now at the age where I am reluctant to start a book series unless it's already completed as I might not live long enough. Yes, George R.R. Martin, I'm referring to you! 😉
Now that you mention it, I'd also propose that another change that might come is a push against series--making Fantasy more accessible without having to commit--a true sign of it being mainstream and not a sub-culture.
I need to watch more original Star Trek, but you might totally be right. I think when they look at cultures with totally different paradigms, that feels like sci-fi. Or if there’s a big weapon or piece of man-made tech that they have to grapple with the moral implications of, that’s basically as sci-fi as it gets. But, still, a lot of it might be Space Fantasy.
13 hrs ago·edited 3 hrs agoLiked by Clifford Stumme
This was an amazing essay, Clifford. well researched, clever, intelligent. It actually opened my eyes as to what I am, or maybe I should be, and where I am in the fantasy genre. I've been writing my serial based on King Arthur, and when (I forget who, and I apologize) suggested my story was more magical realism, I must confess I had no clue as to what that meant -- not that I know a lot about what anything means. But having read this, yeah, I can see how the reader would have thought that. There is no real magic in my story, because the one figure you'd expect that from is already out of the story.
Thanks for enlightening me. I certainly hope reading this doesn't influence me indirectly. I'd hate to start thinking that I have to convey a certain message, or try to become satirical, or judgemental, or transformable, or even -- God forbid -- Politically Correct. I like where the story's going as is.
And I didn't think it was too long at all. Time just flew by as I was reading it. It made me think of all the fantasy stories I read as a kid, and the Prince Valiant comics I followed faithfully growing up, and the Tarzan books I read.
Dude! That was an amazing essay! That’s why I follow you. I don’t have the benefit of an education. Anything I’ve learned, I’ve learned the hard way. I need the insight you introduce me to. I can only hope it makes me a better writer in the long run.
My daughter and son-in-law gave me a collection of Tarzan comics a few years ago for Christmas. When I was a kid, there was a resurgence of Burroughs’ books because they were illustrated by Frazetta. I ate those things up.
Wow, this was really comprehensive! No wonder it took you ages to write!
I'm trying to think of any other seminal works of fantasy, but you covered everything I knew of. When I started reading fantasy, I read most of the above to cover the bases. I have read that the most influential scifi was movies or videogames, not books, so much. Firefly was a short-lived series but it ignited the idea of the space western, which got explored heavily in later media. Not sure that helps your article at all, just something I was thinking of.
What was your process like for selecting books when you started?
And, yes, love Firefly. Such a good show. I’ve thought about doing a similar article for sci-fi, but after how much work this one was, I might wait a while. :P Firefly would for sure feature though.
My initial reaction to this post (and while I was reading it, I admit) is: YES, THANK YOU.
This might be my favorite bit of analysis I've read in quite a while. (Which is to say that I read literary and social analyses somewhat regularly, like a nerd.) It scratched an itch I hadn't realized had been growing.
This sort of analytical and passionate combination looking at a genre so close to the hearts of so many is why I'm here. We all should be so lucky to have a bird's eye view like this to explore the histories of influence and see how they continue to be relevant. Well done.
Please keep going with this line of reasoning! I'd happily devour any articles you wanted to write with a focus on individual eras or authors and their impacts.
One fantasy author missing from this list who helped shape my understanding as a child is Andre Norton. She's better known for her science fiction novels, I think, but I honestly had no idea since my library only had her fantasy books which were some of the first novels to really captivate me (before I got my hands on Tolkien's work anyway).
At any rate, I look forward to reading more and in the meantime will be sharing this with my favorite literature and folklore nerds.
Crystal, this kind of comment makes all the work worth it. So glad I’ve been able to provide that reading experience for you. And I will look into Andre Norton. I hadn’t heard of her, but after a quick Google, I can see she was pretty prolific.
And, yeah, seeing all the trends is super exciting. I’m kind of hoping someone will call me out on weaknesses they find here and write an even better one. Maybe you? ;)
That was a fantastic read. I think part of the reason for the "everything is Tolkien but worse" feeling (which has arguably lessened even in high fantasy) is that all those authors grew up with fantasy as a clear genre, as compared to Tolkien, Lewis, and Co. who drew from much wider-ranging sources. I've seen the same criticism leveled at modern video games (the only things they draw on are other video games). In the end, we get three subsets of authors: generic mainstream Tolkien-lites churning out the Hapsburg Jaws of fantasy; creative but niche authors who are fun to read but feel like they're lacking something; and, as you pointed out, satirists like Pratchett who are, alas, fewer and farther between than might be wished.
I guess that sounds a bit downer, and I don't want to downplay genuinely creative authors like Sanderson and Clarke, but that's how I feel. Given your "fantasy is reactionary" thesis, I suspect (or hope) that we will get a push toward tradition and ancient knowledge, against the wholesale rejection of tradition in society at large. Even the old myths have been skinned and worn as mere costumes (Percy Jackson, Marvel, etc.). Maybe we will find that readers are starved for the substance? Or maybe I'm completely out of touch with modern fantasy and I'm missing something obvious. Either way, I wholeheartedly enjoyed this read.
I love what you’re saying here, and I wonder if it won’t align with my theory of an incoming generation of literary Fantasy. It would be neat to see authors finding inspiration out of the now recursive Epic Fantasy subgenre and to go a little wider.
I think Piranesi by Susanna Clarke is a great example, and I think American Gods by Gaiman went in this direction. My reading list usually takes about 10 years to catch up with what’s current, so I’m a little lost for other suggestions, but I think if there aren’t already quite a few, then we will see more soon.
This is really great. I've had the M&J book on my bookshelf for a few years but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. I agree with so much of what you've said here and I'm encouraged that my WIP fits two of the three speculations you have about the future of the genre.
As for novels left out of your discussion, I would have to think Ghormenghast would be interesting to consider in the era of Tolkien, Lewis and White. There was also a strong resurgence of fairy tale inspired fantasy in the 90s, e.g. Tanith Lee, Roboin McKinley, Patricia McKillip and Terri Windling's anthologies. And I think Mieville definitely deserves some space in your list of "fantasy diaspora" authors. I know you are only drawing broad lines though and it's impossible to include everything! The genre of the last few decades has so many contradictions -- romantasy vs grim dark, for ex -- that it's pretty exciting from a high view. But on a personal level, I really related to the term diaspora: as someone who grew up on 70s, 80s and 90s fantasy, I feel a bit lost and overwhelmed with today's abundant and varied options.
1. Tell me more about your WIP (if you're willing). I'm intrigued. My predictions coincide with what I'd like to see (maybe calling my objectivity into question).
2. You're right about Ghormenghast and Mieville. I 100% should have included them. I remember writing up the lists for each decade, and I'm not why I left them out.
3. But if you're able to pick those two out and ask about them, you're obviously very well versed in Fantasy literary history.
4. And, yeah, there's so much out there right now that I ten to default to just waiting a few years before I read contemporary lit just to see what sticks around.
Hey Clifford, I just wanted to say that I’m at work, so it’s going to take me a while to get through this, but I’m six or seven minutes in and you have my attention. Well-written and funny. Looking forward to finishing 🫡
Hey, thanks so much! I really appreciate you taking the time to say something so early on. I’m just sitting here waiting for people to read this way-too-long essay wondering what they’ll think, so this is balm to my soul. haha
I’m going to leave off reading the other comments till I get to the end, but I’ve just made it through the first set of literary eras. You have successfully made me feel guilty for my steady diet of fantasy and science fiction. Congratulations.
Haha, by the time you get to the end, you’ll feel better again.
Alright, I made it, and you're right, I feel much better. Before I get all wrapped up in me-centric reactions, I just want to say that I think this was beautifully written, well researched, and compelling. I felt genuine nostalgia reading it throughout the day, had lots of thoughts, and have a whole list of books to buy. You've also convinced me that memes should be allowed in academic papers.
Now, let me try to remember all of the thoughts.
First, I think this is going to be a controversial topic! Defining what lies within and without fantasy before the genre is named is going to cause argument for sure. There's also a question as to whether science fiction and fantasy are really just flavors of the same thing. I mentioned Damien Walter to you before, and he focuses on the concept of mythos over genre, which I think is a pretty compelling framing.
I feel like you did a solid job of presenting the lineage (some of which I had never considered). I think it's really hard to separate fantasy stories from myth making (curious if you've ever read The Golden Bough?) and even religion...except that maybe fantasy begins when we become conscious that we're making things up?
I would love to see a comparison between C.S. Lewis and Philip Pullman. You framed Pullman's work as "anti-Lewisian" and I'd never considered it, but it seems like there's something there.
Regarding your predictions--and I swear this isn't a plug!--it's pretty astonishing how much of what you wrote I see in my own work, aside from the reaction to romantasy; I haven't read enough of that to be reacting to it. But to the point of writing as reaction, I saw chosen ones in everything I consumed (and loved) and made a conscious decision never to write about one, but instead to write more human stories that happened to feature magic; I saw hard magic systems proliferating and decided on soft; and though it's been more of an evolution in this direction over the years, I find my writing focusing less on plot and more on ideas and emotions.
Ah, one last thing I remembered wanting to mention. In some other communities, they claim the postmodern is being / will be followed by the metamodern. *Into the Spiderverse* is cited as a popular example of a metamodern story. Curious if you've heard of it or given it any thought.
Anyway, thanks for the effort, great piece and looking forward to seeing what you publish next.
Loved this! Do you think that fantasy is inherently tied to mythology? Are there big works of fantasy that aren't tied to a mythologic/religious tradition?
So hard to say and maybe beyond my knowledge. I think many have tried to differentiate themselves from those two but my instinct is that opposing something is still sort of being descended from it.
Great job, Clifford! It was a great education. Personally, I think your "Where Next?" predictions are spot on. My writing falls in the second one--mostly "realistic" adventure stories with a touch of "magic." Thanks for the time and effort!
I thoroughly enjoyed this read - thanks for putting all the work into it! There is so much here, I’ll definitely be book marking it for reference.
Thanks! I’m glad it was helpful
The postmodernism movement is hilarious because they teach that there are NO ABSOLUTES but that very statement IS AN ABSOLUTE in and of itself. 🤣 Intellectual hypocrisy at its finest.
Fantastic work. Cheers!
The core issue. 🤣
I've never thought of gothic literature as part of the fantasy genre, this is such an interesting look on how fantasy is related to larger literary trends
It’s almost like “will they, won’t they?” fantasy. Is the monster really a monster? Or just a grumpy old woman in the attic?
Enjoyed your essay very much. I'm an "omnivore" when it comes to my reading (I need to invent a better word), so enjoy the comparing and contrasting of the different genres, literary movements, and how they play off each other.
Having just finished reading your article, so not a lot of thought about your points, I would also argue that much of "Star Trek" is also fantasy. Gene Roddenberry, and many of the sf writers in the 1940-1950's, were veterans of WWII. Their writing reflects their fantasy of a "perfect" world, one without war, poverty, greed, discrimination, and prejudice. Faster-Than-Light (FTL) space travel is, itself, a form of "soft magic" as is a completely altruistic society.
On a lighter note, I blame Tolkien and Lewis for popularizing trilogies and series. I am now at the age where I am reluctant to start a book series unless it's already completed as I might not live long enough. Yes, George R.R. Martin, I'm referring to you! 😉
Now that you mention it, I'd also propose that another change that might come is a push against series--making Fantasy more accessible without having to commit--a true sign of it being mainstream and not a sub-culture.
I need to watch more original Star Trek, but you might totally be right. I think when they look at cultures with totally different paradigms, that feels like sci-fi. Or if there’s a big weapon or piece of man-made tech that they have to grapple with the moral implications of, that’s basically as sci-fi as it gets. But, still, a lot of it might be Space Fantasy.
This was an amazing essay, Clifford. well researched, clever, intelligent. It actually opened my eyes as to what I am, or maybe I should be, and where I am in the fantasy genre. I've been writing my serial based on King Arthur, and when (I forget who, and I apologize) suggested my story was more magical realism, I must confess I had no clue as to what that meant -- not that I know a lot about what anything means. But having read this, yeah, I can see how the reader would have thought that. There is no real magic in my story, because the one figure you'd expect that from is already out of the story.
Thanks for enlightening me. I certainly hope reading this doesn't influence me indirectly. I'd hate to start thinking that I have to convey a certain message, or try to become satirical, or judgemental, or transformable, or even -- God forbid -- Politically Correct. I like where the story's going as is.
And I didn't think it was too long at all. Time just flew by as I was reading it. It made me think of all the fantasy stories I read as a kid, and the Prince Valiant comics I followed faithfully growing up, and the Tarzan books I read.
You’re too kind as always, Ben, and I’m glad I could help!
Dude! That was an amazing essay! That’s why I follow you. I don’t have the benefit of an education. Anything I’ve learned, I’ve learned the hard way. I need the insight you introduce me to. I can only hope it makes me a better writer in the long run.
"Prince Valiant" was a Sunday Funny staple growing up. So was "The Phantom"--a modern version of "Tarzan."
My daughter and son-in-law gave me a collection of Tarzan comics a few years ago for Christmas. When I was a kid, there was a resurgence of Burroughs’ books because they were illustrated by Frazetta. I ate those things up.
Read the whole thing! Very well done and nicely organized.
I'm hoping for some softly magical satire stories.
Thanks, Kailani. It was a labor of love.
Wow, this was really comprehensive! No wonder it took you ages to write!
I'm trying to think of any other seminal works of fantasy, but you covered everything I knew of. When I started reading fantasy, I read most of the above to cover the bases. I have read that the most influential scifi was movies or videogames, not books, so much. Firefly was a short-lived series but it ignited the idea of the space western, which got explored heavily in later media. Not sure that helps your article at all, just something I was thinking of.
What was your process like for selecting books when you started?
And, yes, love Firefly. Such a good show. I’ve thought about doing a similar article for sci-fi, but after how much work this one was, I might wait a while. :P Firefly would for sure feature though.
My initial reaction to this post (and while I was reading it, I admit) is: YES, THANK YOU.
This might be my favorite bit of analysis I've read in quite a while. (Which is to say that I read literary and social analyses somewhat regularly, like a nerd.) It scratched an itch I hadn't realized had been growing.
This sort of analytical and passionate combination looking at a genre so close to the hearts of so many is why I'm here. We all should be so lucky to have a bird's eye view like this to explore the histories of influence and see how they continue to be relevant. Well done.
Please keep going with this line of reasoning! I'd happily devour any articles you wanted to write with a focus on individual eras or authors and their impacts.
One fantasy author missing from this list who helped shape my understanding as a child is Andre Norton. She's better known for her science fiction novels, I think, but I honestly had no idea since my library only had her fantasy books which were some of the first novels to really captivate me (before I got my hands on Tolkien's work anyway).
At any rate, I look forward to reading more and in the meantime will be sharing this with my favorite literature and folklore nerds.
Crystal, this kind of comment makes all the work worth it. So glad I’ve been able to provide that reading experience for you. And I will look into Andre Norton. I hadn’t heard of her, but after a quick Google, I can see she was pretty prolific.
And, yeah, seeing all the trends is super exciting. I’m kind of hoping someone will call me out on weaknesses they find here and write an even better one. Maybe you? ;)
That was a fantastic read. I think part of the reason for the "everything is Tolkien but worse" feeling (which has arguably lessened even in high fantasy) is that all those authors grew up with fantasy as a clear genre, as compared to Tolkien, Lewis, and Co. who drew from much wider-ranging sources. I've seen the same criticism leveled at modern video games (the only things they draw on are other video games). In the end, we get three subsets of authors: generic mainstream Tolkien-lites churning out the Hapsburg Jaws of fantasy; creative but niche authors who are fun to read but feel like they're lacking something; and, as you pointed out, satirists like Pratchett who are, alas, fewer and farther between than might be wished.
I guess that sounds a bit downer, and I don't want to downplay genuinely creative authors like Sanderson and Clarke, but that's how I feel. Given your "fantasy is reactionary" thesis, I suspect (or hope) that we will get a push toward tradition and ancient knowledge, against the wholesale rejection of tradition in society at large. Even the old myths have been skinned and worn as mere costumes (Percy Jackson, Marvel, etc.). Maybe we will find that readers are starved for the substance? Or maybe I'm completely out of touch with modern fantasy and I'm missing something obvious. Either way, I wholeheartedly enjoyed this read.
I love what you’re saying here, and I wonder if it won’t align with my theory of an incoming generation of literary Fantasy. It would be neat to see authors finding inspiration out of the now recursive Epic Fantasy subgenre and to go a little wider.
Gosh, I found lots of new books to read. This is amazing.
Thanks for reading!
Love this. I hope the following prediction is right as it’s something I’ve wanted to see for a while...
“think we’re going to see the rise of Literary Fantasy—books focused on character and tone told in magical settings.”
Can you suggest any examples of books or authors that already do this?
Love this. I hope the following prediction is right as it’s something I’ve wanted to see for a while...
“think we’re going to see the rise of Literary Fantasy—books focused on character and tone told in magical settings.”
Can you suggest any examples of books or authors that already do this?
I think Piranesi by Susanna Clarke is a great example, and I think American Gods by Gaiman went in this direction. My reading list usually takes about 10 years to catch up with what’s current, so I’m a little lost for other suggestions, but I think if there aren’t already quite a few, then we will see more soon.
This is really great. I've had the M&J book on my bookshelf for a few years but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. I agree with so much of what you've said here and I'm encouraged that my WIP fits two of the three speculations you have about the future of the genre.
As for novels left out of your discussion, I would have to think Ghormenghast would be interesting to consider in the era of Tolkien, Lewis and White. There was also a strong resurgence of fairy tale inspired fantasy in the 90s, e.g. Tanith Lee, Roboin McKinley, Patricia McKillip and Terri Windling's anthologies. And I think Mieville definitely deserves some space in your list of "fantasy diaspora" authors. I know you are only drawing broad lines though and it's impossible to include everything! The genre of the last few decades has so many contradictions -- romantasy vs grim dark, for ex -- that it's pretty exciting from a high view. But on a personal level, I really related to the term diaspora: as someone who grew up on 70s, 80s and 90s fantasy, I feel a bit lost and overwhelmed with today's abundant and varied options.
Stace, so much good stuff to respond to here:
1. Tell me more about your WIP (if you're willing). I'm intrigued. My predictions coincide with what I'd like to see (maybe calling my objectivity into question).
2. You're right about Ghormenghast and Mieville. I 100% should have included them. I remember writing up the lists for each decade, and I'm not why I left them out.
3. But if you're able to pick those two out and ask about them, you're obviously very well versed in Fantasy literary history.
4. And, yeah, there's so much out there right now that I ten to default to just waiting a few years before I read contemporary lit just to see what sticks around.